A Cordial Response to Rachel Held Evans’ Post “The Future of Evangelicalism”
Popular blogger Rachel Evans recently wrote a post entitled “The Future of Evangelicalism: A Twenty-Something’s Perspective.” Let me first say that I’m a fan. I generally find her insightful, balanced, and refreshing, which is why her blog is one of the select few I regularly visit. All the comments I offer below should be understood in light of that. That is, people shouldn’t read the heated rhetoric of the blogosphere into my words here. That having been said, as another twenty-something I strongly disagree with much of the content in the aforementioned post. Since she invited feedback, I wanted to offer my thoughts not as a rebuttal but certainly as a challenge. I hope she’ll read this and reply.
There’s a number of things I want to say that are rather disjointed in my head, so I hope readers will forgive the bullet point, stream-of-consciousness format:
- Question – Rachel asked, “Do you identify in any way with that community?” Yes. Although I openly acknowledge having strong reservations about the term, I do describe myself as an evangelical despite the great deal of emotional turmoil this has caused. If you’re interested in a better understanding of my perspective, here’s an old post that explains my journey coming to embrace that label.
- Paradigms – While Rachel says she dislikes binaries and us vs. them categorization–an accurate statement based upon my experience–her perception of evangelicalism seems premised upon that paradigm. A couple brief nuances don’t nullify that. I don’t understand why she doesn’t apply her usual thought processes to this area. As a friend of mine put it, “I don’t think that her inaccurate view of these ‘movements’ is a slight mistake. By perpetuating negative and inaccurate caricatures of the people she disagrees with, she only succeeds in contributing to the very problem that she identifies in her post: the increasing divide between the difference sides of evangelicalism.” Agreed. I wish she’d read a book like Roger Olson’sHow to be Evangelical without Being Conservative. Evangelicalism contains numerous figures offering similar perspectives. On a related note, Olson is passionate about being an evangelical yet classifies himself as “postconservative” rather than a liberal, moderate, emerging, or “young” evangelical.
- Delineation – She writes, “My third prediction is that the word ‘evangelical’ will go the way of ‘fundamentalism’…” Interesting wording: “go the way of.” Historians like George Marsden have written extensively on the difference between those terms. If she hasn’t done so, I think she’d benefit from reading a book like his Understanding Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism. Rather than saying evangelicalism will become a synonym for fundamentalism, I think she and other bloggers would do well to hop in the way-back machine and retrieve the distinction between the two. In my estimate, they’d benefit from knowing that a guy like Mohler actually represent an extreme fundamentalist form of evangelicalism.
- Understanding – I could be wrong, but she doesn’t seem to have a good historical understanding of the mainline denominations. Only when one understands their nature and origins can one distinguish between an evangelical who is, in fact, pretty moderate like a Greg Boyd from those in truly liberal denominations. Boyd is an Open Theist and is critical of the blurring between American evangelicals’ eternal and temporal citizenship while being firmly committed to historical orthodoxy.
- Dissension – I won’t divulge names, but I known from personal correspondence that there are significant voices within the Neo-Reformed Movement who have sharp disagreement with Piper & Co. They’re too busy living their faith to get embroiled in these online brewhahas, though. Has Rachel noticed that Tim Keller has remained conspicuously absent from the Rob Bell controversy, for example? Moreover, on the popular level, I have lots of friends who consider themselves part of that movement yet aren’t simple-minded goons nor do they behave like angry fundamentalists. They may strongly disagree with Bell to the point of wondering if he’s transgressed orthodoxy, but they’re not embroiled in the blog war and when they talk about the issue they listen intently and think critically.
- Perception – It seems that she, like so many writers, doesn’t get that blogs suggest a distorted reality. In many ways, blogs are like political primaries. The radicals come out in force, thus making the whole party look insane. I suspect it’s the same for the Neo-Reformed Movement. The civil, silent majority don’t show up in the traffic stats she referred to.
- Outliers – This is more a general criticism than anything directed at her, but, to quote the late great Chris Farley, “for the love of all that is good and holy” will someone please recognize not only the existence of but the preeminence of figures like Philip Yancey and Mark Noll within American evangelicalism? They hold huge influence–Yancey is one of the best-selling evangelical writers and Noll is one of TIME’s “25 Most Influential Evangelicals“–yet people see them as outliers. What?? They represent the absolute best of evangelicalism, yet they’re typically ignored from such discussions.
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Symbol – Speaking of the absolute best of evangelicalism, religious historians are half-serious when they joke that the best definition for an evangelical is a person who likes Billy Graham. Beyond his preaching the gospel to more people than anyone else in history, Graham helped start publications like Christianity Today, encouraged intellectual rigor at seminaries like Fuller, Wheaton, and Gordon-Conwell, was a major player in the ecumenical dialogue between evangelicals and Catholics, supported the controversial Jesus People counter-cultural movement, decried apartheid in South Africa, and was the first evangelist let behind the Iron Curtain during the Cold War. He also avoided affiliation with either major political party and remained intentionally apolitical with one notable exception: the Civil Right Movement. There he put his full support behind the movement by refusing to preach to segregated audiences, personally bailing Martin Luther King, Jr. out of jail, inviting King to share his pulpit, and supporting civil rights legislation. He was basically the opposite of the boy who cried wolf. Graham so rarely weighed in on political matters that people took careful notice when he did. In all these ways he embodied the evangelicalism of the WWII generation. Yet his name never enters these discussions because can’t think past our own parents, Baby Boomers like Franklin Graham, who sold evangelicalism to the GOP. How have we so quickly forgotten the face of evangelicalism even before he’s passed? This baffles me.
- Signposts – She says that evangelicals are being “associated with dogmatism regarding politics, science, women’s roles, homosexuality, salvation, and biblical literalism.” Really? Politics. What about Jim Wallis? Science. What about Francis Collins? Women’s roles. What about Scot McKnight? Homosexuality. What about Stanley Grenz? Salvation. What about N.T. Wright? Biblical literalism. What about Fuller Seminary? All of these are signposts for evangelicalism’s supposed shift toward fundamentalism, yet many of the most high-profile names associated with those issues don’t hold conservative perspectives. That’s a bit of a problem. There’s two related points I’d like make. First, regarding homosexuality specifically, can we please stop letting the media’s oversimplistic sound bytes frame our perception of the evangelical response? Check out Grenz’s Welcoming But Not Affirming. Second, two of my good friends are current students at Trinity Evangelical Divinity. Both are complementarians and will tell you it’s hard to find others who share their perspective even though Trinity is a conservative seminary. This uniform conservativism thing just don’t hold water.
- Institutions – It’s plain fact that preeminent evangelical colleges and seminaries are not uniformly conservative, especially to the point of blurring the line between conservative evangelical and fundamentalist. Evangelicalism has and continues to expressed a wide-range of perspectives at institutions like Wheaton, Westminster, Bethel, Trinity, Biblical, Dallas, Fuller, Gordon-Conwell, Moody, Southern, and George Fox.
- Creationism – Regarding the whole Young Earth thing, let’s keep in mind a few things. First, the whole shebang actually started with Ellen G. White, the founder of Seventh Day Adventists, in the 19th century (see: Mark Noll’s The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind). She clearly wasn’t an evangelical. Second, it’s hard if not impossible to take a step back and gain a historical perspective on the present, but people tend to freak out about major conflicts in the present that subsequent generations see only as the peak of a particular cultural view that later receded. Is that wasn’t going on? Third, it’s easy to obsess about Ken Ham’s Creation Museum while ignoring John Walton’s The Lost World of Genesis One: Ancient Cosmology and the Origins Debate, but remember that the ideas of academia tend to slowly trickle down into the pews. Fourth, the theological system within which YEC became so popular has been, in large part, discredited by the academic community. The Left Behind series is/was incredibly popular, but it’s hard to find a highly respected Dispensationalist even within evangelical scholarship.
- Science – It seems to me that, like so many people our age, Rachel suffers from historical short-sightedness. For example, she makes the evolution/science debate out to be this huge deal representing the movement’s growing internal rift. I wish she’d read Evangelicals and Science in Historical Perspective. These tensions are nothing new. They’ve existed for a long time. For example, what about the Scopes Monkey Trial there in her backyard of Dayton, TN? By the way, it’s worth noting that Francis Collins, one of the most high-profile, respected scientists in the country, is an evangelical.
- Theology – I find Rachel’s perception of evangelical theologians to be… limited. What about theologians like Kevin Vanhoozer who make conservatives uncomfortable yet don’t fit the emerging label, either? She references N.T. Wright in passing, but he’s probably evangelicalism’s #1 most influential and well-known theologian, and over the past year or so he’s been taken on Piper full steam. How can we say Piper represents evangelicalism’s future more than Wright? Also, it’s important to note that the former bishop of Durham has attained such a lofty place of theological influence that he’s tremendously respected by mainline denominations, which means that, unlike someone like D.A. Carson, Wright’s work transcends the evangelical readership. His work is read and interacted with even in mainline seminaries. While we’re at it, what other theologian has been featured on Nightlight, The Colbert Report, TIME articles, and the like? The world’s most famous theologian is an evangelical. That’s got to carry some weight.
- Umbrella – Without question the long-standing #1 evangelical publication, Christianity Today, is consistently sane on matters of theology, politics, culture, and the like. Contrast their 2005 article entitled “The New Monasticism” against the 2006 article “Young, Restless, Reformed.” CT sure isn’t being co-opted by either of Rachel’s polarities, but is rather seeing all these sub-movements part of the big umbrella of evangelicalism. I have the sense that in the same way both liberals and conservative try to define themselves as “true Americans,” so there are people in both the extremes that see themselves as true evangelicals. The reality, however, is that the ambiguous nature of the movement encompasses them all, and always has.
- Alternatives – She suggests that the Neo-Reformed Movement is becoming the dominant voice within evangelicalism and will eventually snuff out all the others. OK, but what about the whole Ancient-Future/liturgical movement within evangelicalism? That’s arguably just as influential as the Neo-Reformed Movement. Why isn’t it garnering the same press? That’s one of many examples. Seems to me evangelicalism just keeps on being a diverse, complexity, ill-defined convergence of reform movements.
- Inconsistency – A lot of people claim that the media has slowly but surely recast the term evangelical to mean “Christian Right.” Excuse me, but what about someone like Rick Warren, a guy who the media keeps trying to dub the next “America’s pastor” as the successor to Billy Graham? How quickly people have forgotten that Warren moderated a presidential election two and half years ago and was very balanced. When we’re talking about the present and future of the evangelical identity, one cannot downplay or ignore the role of guys like Warren. I find that inconsistent. This also isn’t a direct response to Rachel, but I do think it reflects the general perception to which she’s responding.
- Predictions – Lastly, this whole prediction business makes me uneasy. I’m remembering Mark Noll’s remark that “philosophers rush in where historians fear to tread.” In my opinion, prediction about the future is something we should all avoid. Case in point, in the late 1930s and early 1940s few would have thought evangelicalism would have made a comeback. Then came the events captured in Garth Rosell’s The Surprising Work of God: Harold John Ockenga, Billy Graham, and the Rebirth of Evangelicalism.







Carson,
If I may posit something in response to the “Alternatives” category.
I think the biggest difference here between the evangelical/neo-Reformed and the ancient-future folks that you are speaking about is that the first category tend to be in the Reformed/Baptist/non-denominational traditions while the latter gravitate to the more mainline or Lutheran/Anglican traditions.
While that might not be a significant difference for some many in the second category seem not to identify with the “evangelical” term or culture as often as the former do. Perhaps the author observed that and excluded the latter as a result.
Good point. Of course, the problem is that there’s *many* strongly Reformed Anglicans, e.g. J.I. Packer. Also, there exist Anglicans who are definitively evangelical such as myself. I’m an evangelical, ancient-future Anglican. Nevertheless, I think the point is raise is generally valid.
Carson,
What do you think of her description of “emerging evangelicals”? (I don’t think I can wade through Markham’s essay.) Do you think it’s accurate? Living in the Bible belt, I have yet to meet these people, perhaps–as Rachel indicated–because they are disorganized. But my desire to take up social justice issues was in large part influenced by my experience in an influential PCA church and a year at Calvin College (CRC, same diff). I don’t buy the double predestination and limited atonement parts of the TULIP, but I’ve never felt more challenged in my faith than during my time at those institutions. I’ve been thinking about the reasons that I’ve stepped away from churches in general. I’ve decided that American Christianity is broken. According to Rachel’s definition, I would fall into the second category, someone looking for more authenticity. However, I am a traditionalist at heart; I love theology and church history. She does give lip service to people who fall into both categories, but I would like your thoughts.
thanks!
Jodi,
“What do you think of her description of ‘emerging evangelicals’?”
Hmmmm… I had the term “evangelical left,” for starters. It again suggests a politically-driven evangelical movement, only in the other direction. Oy. I agree with a lot (e.g. not Republican) and also disagree with a lot (e.g. non-denominational). I guess I think it’s a mixed bag.
“(I don’t think I can wade through Markham’s essay.)”
Yeah, I feel the same way. It’s a beast.
“Do you think it’s accurate?”
I do think there’s a significant generational movement among younger evangelicals who are disillusioned by their parents vision for the christian faith yet remain committed the four hallmarks of evangelicalism: conversionism (being born again), activism (the Lordship of Christ over all areas of life), crucicentrism (a focus around Christ’s death upon the cross for the atonement of sin), and biblicentrism (a strong emphasis upon the Bible). In that sense, they’re firmly evangelical but looking for something new. But the precise nature of what that looks like… that’s a huge question.
“Living in the Bible belt, I have yet to meet these people…”
Yeah, I believe that. In my experience, those who are disillusioned by traditional conservative evangelicalism tend to be in places where there’s a more liberal cultural ethos–Northeast, West Coast, and parts of the Midwest. Dissatisfaction tends to galvanize the search for alternatives, and there’s just not that same sense of frustration in the South. If anything, they’ve embraced their culture and are looking to maintain it.
“…perhaps–as Rachel indicated–because they are disorganized.”
Eh, I’m sure disorganization is part of it but I think the key thing for you–and I say that hesitantly as I don’t know your experiences–is probably geography.
“But my desire to take up social justice issues was in large part influenced by my experience in an influential PCA church and a year at Calvin College (CRC, same diff).”
I hear ya.
“I don’t buy the double predestination and limited atonement parts of the TULIP…”
Agreed.
“… but I’ve never felt more challenged in my faith than during my time at those institutions.”
Interesting.
“I’ve been thinking about the reasons that I’ve stepped away from churches in general.”
I empathize. Although I’m clearly in a different place now, I’ve been there.
“I’ve decided that American Christianity is broken.”
Would you please clarify what you mean by this?
“According to Rachel’s definition, I would fall into the second category, someone looking for more authenticity. However, I am a traditionalist at heart; I love theology and church history.”
Oh, will you just join me in Anglicanism already!
Also, have you heard of Jim Belcher’s book ‘Deep Church: A Third Way Beyond Emerging and Traditional’? If not, I would highly recommend it to you.
“She does give lip service to people who fall into both categories, but I would like your thoughts.”
Honestly, one of the reasons I’m so critical is probably because I share you experience in not fitting those neat categories.
You’re welcome.
Carson, if it’s ok, I’ll send you a friend request on FB. It’s a long rant and a little personal.
Carson,
Great post, brotha!
Let me just add, I think she just needs to read George Mardsen’s Fundamentalism and American Culture. It gives several different traditions within the evangelical movement.
Thanks!
Agreed.
Carson, I’m gonna have to side with Rachel here. The way things are going, some of us are really, really not feeling welcomed in our Evangelical homes. The label and history of the label itself may be broad to fit all of us – but the truth is that it’s a bit like trying to fit in as a Republican these days. With the loud-mouths taking center and most people just quoting and ditto-ing them (which is happening. Many, many friends that I greatly admire and respect and that have had a wonderful impact on my life are quoting Mohler and the others as if they were God themselves), many of us are feeling not just marginalized, but pushed out. You’ve heard of RINO’s? We’re EINOs…
I feel that this comic from Naked Pastor sums it up pretty well for me: http://www.nakedpastor.com/2011/03/26/old-cartoon-caution-people-falling/
And I can’t even tell you how many people have walked out of church life altogether because we haven’t been loving. I want to love (and I do. It’s just becoming all the much harder) and continue to speak with the Neo-Reformed as a whole. Regardless, we need to continue to break bread and drink grape juice together (LOL), but it’s not Rachel and I that are pushing ourselves out the door here, bro.
btw, Olsen himself doesn’t seem to think that Evangelicalism can hold much longer with the creeping (and increasingly powerful and intolerant) “neofundamentalist” wing calling themselves evangelical.
http://rogereolson.com/2011/03/24/the-new-fundamentalism/
“Boyd is an Open Theist . . . while being firmly committed to historical orthodoxy.”
Sorry man, after I read this line I had a hard time taking the rest of what you wrote very seriously. Show me any respected Christian thinker in the history of the church who would have even considered Open Theism as an option and maybe I’ll change my mind. I don’t see how your version of “evangelicalism” is any different from Liberal Protestantism if you’re going to say that an Open Theist is committed to “historical orthodoxy.”
Matt,
Hello. Let’s start by defining our terms.
Please tell me if you disagree with any of the following:
- Orthodoxy: The body of essential doctrines that must be upheld and preserved for the maintenance of true Christianity, i.e. the Trinity.
- Adiaphora: The body of secondary doctrines that, while important, can be disagreed upon by believers without jeopardizing true Christianity, i.e. Arminianism.
- Heresy: Not merely the questioning of, but the rejection of one or more orthodox doctrines, i.e. Arianism.
- Heretic: A person who affirms heresy, i.e. Arius.
Do we agree thus far?
Carson,
Not sure if I am replying to your comment in the correct space but whatever the case may be you know that this comment is a reply to your reply to me.
I do agree with all of your definitions above, although I think there is often disagreement over what exactly are essential doctrines and what exactly is adiaphora.
With that said, I repeat my charge that Greg Boyd is a heretic, no different from a liberal Protestant and for you to equate Boyd’s belief with evangelicalism simply shows why evangelical is a term now devoid of meaning.
I agree with what Thomas Oden, Arminian, friend to Eastern Orthodoxy and professor at Drew University wrote concerning Boyd’s “demonic” heresy:
“If ‘reformists’ insist on keeping the boundaries of heresy open, however, then they must be resisted with charity. The fantasy that God is ignorant of the future is a heresy that must be rejected on scriptural grounds (“I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come”; Isa. 46:10a; cf. Job 28; Ps. 90; Rom. 8:29; Eph. 1), as it has been in the history of the exegesis of relevant passages. This issue was thoroughly discussed by patristic exegetes as early as Origen’s Against Celsus. Keeping the boundaries of faith undefined is a demonic temptation that evangelicals within the mainline have learned all too well and have been burned by all too painfully. (Thomas Oden, “The Real Reformers and the Traditionalists,” Christianity Today, Feb. 9, 1998, p. 46.)
Matt,
Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I hope we can keep moving forward.
You wrote, “I do agree with all of your definitions above, although I think there is often disagreement over what exactly are essential doctrines and what exactly is adiaphora.”
Agreed. That’s why I spent a ridiculous amount of time on that exact issue. I know this is long (and will seem even longer because of the narrow format), but I’d like to copy/paste a whole blog post when I was explaining my spiritual journey. I know it’s asking a lot, but would you please read it? OK, here it is:
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In all candor, it became impossible to ignore the sheer absurdity of Protestantism. I thought, ‘If Sola Scriptura is true, if the Bible truly is the Church’s final authority on all matters of doctrine and practice, if we affirm the Perspicuity of Scripture, how is it that brilliant, devout Christians fiercely disagree on just about everything?’ This led to questions about the Bible’s authority given the complications found in interpretation. ‘Don’t these people affirm the doctrines of mankind’s finitude and fallenness? And if so, how can they not apply them to their theological convictions on highly debated matters? How could they retain such smug certitude–almost completely devoid of humility–in the veracity of their own doctrinal beliefs, that they alone have rightly interpreted and applied the Word of God?’ Talk about willful self-deception. It seemed that all evangelical theologians and pastors were naive, ignorant, arrogant, and/or dishonest. Yet I had sense enough to realize that sheer relativism was equally idiotic. Out of sheer desperation–truly an attempt to save my faith–I turned to and explored Christendom’s two more historic branches.
While I never was able to forgo my cognitive dissonance enough to join Catholicism or Orthodoxy, the experience was instrumental in grounding my faith in a community of believers transcending time and space. It became not so much a matter of where do Catholics, Orthodox, or Protestantism’s various sub-traditions differ, but what are those essential doctrines that unite them all? Around that time two of my professors each taught me a very important thing that confirmed that trajectory. Dr. Jüncker taught me the term adiaphora (secondary doctrine), which was in contrast to orthodoxy (essential doctrine). Arminianism vs. Calvinism is secondary while Jesus’ bodily resurrection is essential. Dr. Shelton taught me St. Vincent of Lerins’ Quod semper, quod ubique, quod ab omnibus, which basically means those things that all Christians everywhere have always believed. I mentally tied those two issues together and found great comfort in the process.
From personal experience, few things are more hurtful for a Christian than being accused of heresy, especially when you know that your motives are pure–that all you’re doing is asking deep, honest questions in an effort to seek truth, worship God with your mind, or simply resolve doubt. Sometimes you can see it coming. For example, a few years back I questioned the Trinity. Something seemed amiss, not to mention politically expedient, about a Roman emperor who claims to have become a Christian after seeing a vision telling him to slaughter people in Jesus’ name, then calls a council for the Church to resolve its most heated theological schism, personally aligns himself with the losing view, and by all accounts lives like a heathen for the rest of his life before being baptized on his dead bed. So I questioned it and, as expected, had the H-bomb leveled against me. All too often this is what happens when one is serious about the Bible’s dual natures–simultaneously fully inspired by God and fully the product of human authors writing in precise cultural-historical contexts. I absorbed a lot of sucker punches, but they made me all the more diligent about studying the nature of heresy and, by extension, orthodoxy.
The first question was simple, what is heresy? The answer seemed equally simple. Heresy is the rejection of one or more doctrines deemed to be essential. That’s where the simplicity came to a screeching halt. For a Catholic or Orthodox that question is simple, but not for a Protestant. Essential to whom? Is there a list? And what exactly would that list entail? Then I got to thinking about matters of salvation. Can a person be saved within a unorthodox context, like a Mormon “church”? Does one have to believe all the orthodox doctrines in order to be a Christian? Is it possible for a person to actually be saved, then come to hold heretical views? Would that person then lose his or her salvation, or is it possible to be a saved heretic? Doesn’t heresy mean you’re not saved?
My studies of Church history revealed that what we term “orthodoxy” seems to be a corrective measure to theology gone terribly awry. That is, it’s a direct result of serious theological error. No one said that Christ’s dual natures as fully God and fully man were essential until someone denied it. No one said Jesus’ literal bodily resurrection was essential until someone denied it. In this way, I believe God has, in his sovereign wisdom, brought a consensus of what the essential doctrines are not only amidst, but directly through the most grave threats to the Church’s beliefs and practices.
OK, so that’s lovely in theory, but in practice what are those doctrines? It took me three months or rigorous study starting with the Apostle’s and Nicene Creeds and going straight through the seven ecumenical councils with quite a bit of the Ante-Nicene Fathers on the way. Here’s the list I came up with for what comprises orthodoxy:
- The existence of a spiritual world
- God who created the world
- Imagio Dei
- Fall
- Hypostatic union (Jesus is both fully God and fully man; two natures, distinct but inseparable)
- Jesus’ virgin birth (begotten not made)
- Jesus’ sinless life
- Jesus’ deity
- Jesus is the Son of God
- Jesus’ crucifixion
- Jesus’ bodily resurrection
- Jesus’ ascension
- Jesus’ return at the eschaton
- Trinity (One God, three Persons: Father, Son, Holy Spirit; all are equal)
- Jesus as head of Church
- Necessity of baptism (not for salvation, but as a commandment)
- Necessity of punishment for sin
- Necessity of faith for atonement and forgiveness of sins, i.e. salvation
- Salvation by grace, which is a gift
- Salvation brings eternal life
- Judgment at eschaton
- Bible is divinely inspired (exactly how many books are canonized is debated)
- Necessity of removing those from fellowship who deny/reject essential doctrines
Debatable doctrines, which causes me to think they don’t fit the definition:
- Eternal existence of all people
- Duty to pray
- Legitimacy of icons
- Legitimacy of relics
By the way, some might say I’ve strayed to the left with this view, I do think it’s possible to be a formal heretic and yet be saved. In other words, I believe that a person who rejects–not questions–an essential, orthodox doctrine can have experienced atonement and the forgiveness of sin. That person should not be allowed to have formal fellowship within the Body, though. For example, I think of someone like Tertullian, the man who coined the term “Trinity” yet ended up joining Montanism (heretical cult) at the end of his life. I have no doubt of his the sincerity of his faith and his efforts to properly live it out, but I think he was misguided at the end of his life. So by “heresy” I don’t necessarily mean a person who has not been redeemed, but one who must be formally excluded from the visible Body of Christ. A heretic could also deny, say, the mere existence of Jesus and I would seriously doubt that person’s salvation. Ultimately, only God knows the heart, but in we have to work with what we see. In the pattern of 1 Corinthians, while the limitations on our perspective should inspire humility and while church discipline ought always be carried out in a spirit of mourning, we must make judgments for the good of the Church.
Anyway, grounding my theology in history slowly shifted my whole schema for Christianity in three important, interrelated ways over the next few years:
1. My intense aversion to Church history was eliminated, which had always been strange given my passion for history. My own interests had been suppressed by the restorationist model of christian faith I’d be been taught where the Church had been corrupted by the centuries, which necessitated a return to true, “biblical” (i.e. first century) Christianity. I came to see that the Bible is not always prescriptive, but descriptive. This is too large an issue to explore here, but suffice to say I learned that the the task of every generation is to lean on the wisdom of those who’ve preceded us in discerningly applying the Bible’s teachings to ever-new cultural-historical contexts.
2. This point was perhaps best articulated by the 19th century British (and pseudo-Anglican) Herbert Butterfield, who wrote, “Christianity is an historical religion in a particularly technical sense that the term possesses—it presents us with religious doctrines which are at the same time historical events or historical interpretations.” I found out that there is no divorcing history from theology or vice versa. The model of faith going back to Genesis isn’t abstract faith in an atemporal deity, but faith in the God who’s revealed Himself through His actions in history. Unlike those days when I’d leapfrog two thousand years from the New Testament to the present, I came to see an almost artistic beauty in Church history. It’s the continuation of the Bible’s redemptive narrative; the tale of Christ’s protecting and guiding His bride; a seamless extension of Scripture’s plot, motifs, and themes. In sum, you might say I’ve come to see Church history as the Bible’s epilogue, explaining what happened after the New Testament cliffhanger.
2. I learned to approach Scripture first and foremost as narrative. It’s more a story than an open pit from which the raw material of propositional truth claims can be mined, refined into doctrines, and finally used in the construction of systematic theologies. While Scripture is chalked full of propositional truth claims, its primary overall function is to tell the story of God’s redemption of humanity.
Collectively those three things transformed my theological conceptions and approach, which restored my faith in Christianity.
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Do you agree with all that?
Hey Carson,
Thanks for sharing your interesting testimony. I went through a lot of the same struggles and thoughts which led me to Anglicanism. When it comes to your conclusions about what comprises orthodoxy I’m sure I’d have a few quibbles here and there. I’m not sure if you were having me read this in answer to my accusation about Open Theism but if you were I don’t really see how this contributes much to the argument. I do think you cited one thing in your testimony though which plays a large role in why men like me and Thomas Oden among many many others condemn Open Theism as rank heresy and those who believe such lies as heretics. You wrote, “Quod semper, quod ubique, quod ab omnibus,” to which I say amen. And so I repeat, show me one Christian community or one respected theologian before the 1970′s who would have made any room for Open Theism. I did look up Open Theism on Wikipedia, by the way, and I see that Open Theists like to claim some guy named Calcidius from the 5th Century as an early Open Theist but I don’t think this one guy who no one would have otherwise ever heard of really counts as “Quod semper, quod ubique, quod ab omnibus.” Also, if the fact that Open Theism was never believed prior to the last 50 years and if for many Christians, Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox it is seen as heresy, please explain to me why you have no problem calling one of its chief proponents, “firmly committed to historical orthodoxy.”
Matt,
Let me preface my next comments real quick. First, I’m clearly spending a lot of time defining things ‘cuz I want to make sure that we mean the same thing with the words. Too few people do that. Second, a lot of people don’t think these days. They’re morons. Rather than going through the difficult work of understanding the facts and discerningly assessing them, they reply with these idiotic emotional rants. I’m intentional to avoid that as much as possible, usually through thoughtful definitions. Second, the internet in particular is full of heated rhetoric. People say things to one another on here that they’d never say in person. This is especially true among Christians. In this way they inflict grave wounds upon the Body of Christ, which is tragic. God help us if we’re guilty of that. I’m trying to avoid such sin.
OK, moving along…
“I’m not sure if you were having me read this in answer to my accusation about Open Theism but if you were I don’t really see how this contributes much to the argument.”
I’m not even to the major point yet. I’m just making certain we have our definitions in place.
“I do think you cited one thing in your testimony though which plays a large role in why men like me and Thomas Oden among many many others condemn Open Theism as rank heresy and those who believe such lies as heretics.”
I’m ignoring this for now.
“You wrote, ‘Quod semper, quod ubique, quod ab omnibus,’ to which I say amen.”
Do you agree that this is the standard for orthodoxy (essential doctrines), not adiaphora?
“And so I repeat, show me one Christian community or one respected theologian before the 1970′s who would have made any room for Open Theism.”
I’m Paleo-Orthodox on my orthodoxy and postfoundationalist on my adiaphora. Seems to me Open Theism pertains to adiaphora, but we’ll get there momentarily…
“I did look up Open Theism on Wikipedia..”
A Primer on Open Theism
http://carsontclark.wordpress.com/2010/11/28/a-primer-on-open-theism/
OK, so here’s my question to you: Which specific doctrine of historic orthodoxy, as defined by the above agreed upon list, does Open Theism reject? I ask ‘cuz we agreed that you can’t label it “heretical” or “heresy” unless it violates one of those doctrines.
Hey Carson,
“idiotic emotional rants.” . . . yeah, that’s probably me… Sorry man, I know I’m frequently guilty of that and I know my rhetoric has been a little over the top in my comments so far. I apologize for that but I do feel very strongly about this issue of Open Theism and also about the level of compromise I see in Evangelical Anglicanism, a part of the body of Christ I care very much about as it has been my home for the last six years.
When it comes to “Quod semper, quod ubique, quod ab omnibus” being a standard of orthodoxy I think it’s the place to start but it by itself is not a sufficient standard. If I thought this was a sufficient standard by itself I think I’d be Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox. But I think Scripture itself gives warrant for the belief that a human institution such as the Church may fall short of believing correctly about the God who reveals Himself in Scripture. I say this for two chief reasons, namely Josiah’s reformation with his finding the book of the Law in 2nd Kings 22 and also Christ’s condemnation of the pharisees’ following after the traditions of men rather than the word of God in Mark 7. In both of these places the people of God had lost or abandoned the teaching of Scripture and both were called back to pure and correct devotion to God using Scripture as the standard for that devotion. This is what I believe God did through the Reformation through such men as Luther, Calvin and Cranmer and it is why I’m not R.C. or E.O. Therefore while I think “Quod semper, quod ubique, quod ab omnibus” forms a basis for orthodoxy I also think that Scripture, read by those filled with the Holy Spirit who directs their understanding, forms a corrective to “Quod semper, quod ubique, quod ab omnibus.”
I read your primer on Open Theism. To me it seems no different from certain weird restorationist religious movements to imagine that you’re gonna get back to some sort of “paleo-” view of God un-sullied by the “evil” of Platonic thought. As for me I’m gonna trust that the Church fathers along with most of the other saints of the church were regenerated and filled with the Holy Spirit and could faithfully read Scripture and see that God is all-knowing and sovereign (although I realize there are different understandings of what exactly that sovereignty looks like within orthodoxy). Also when it comes to Open Theism somehow being more faithful to certain Scriptures where God repenting or doing some such thing is talked about, it looks no more attractive to me to see those Scriptures as literal instead of an anthropomorphism than those Scriptures which speak of God having a hand or wings. I guess if I wanted to take those Scriptures literally I could always become a Mormon since they believe God the Father has a physical body. By the way Mormons are also big on saying that they have somehow rid themselves of the evils of Platonism and returned to a purer more correct understanding of God. I also think it’s a pretty big jump to say that the ancient Israelites saw God as being in any way confined to time because such things as divine repentance are mentioned. I see no reason to believe that even when they received this Scripture they wouldn’t have seen God’s repentance as an anthropomorphism with real meaning and not something to be taken literally.
Lastly, I didn’t agree to your list. It’s not a bad list but I said that I had some quibbles with it here and there. And one of those is that I think, along with men like Oden, Piper and many of my Catholic and Orthodox friends, that divine impassibility also belongs on the list of doctrines of historic orthodoxy. And it is this doctrine of divine impassibility which I think Open Theism destroys. It’s funny, reading your blog I’ve always thought you were one of these people who is really big on church tradition and looking to the historic Church in a universal sense to determine what should be the belief and practice of Christianity. But it seems that with this issue you are more extremely Protestant, biblicist and fundamentalist than even such men as Piper who at least is able to humble himself before the uniform teaching of the Christian church on this issue prior to the 20th Century. I think it is true arrogance to think that we can gain a better understanding of what God is revealing about Himself in Scripture than all of those men and women of God who went before us. This is exactly what Open Theism does – after 2000 years of what is basically complete consensus the Open Theist is now going to claim that he has found the real understanding of God which is faithful to the Scriptures.
Matt,
“… In both of these places the people of God had lost or abandoned the teaching of Scripture and both were called back to pure and correct devotion to God using Scripture as the standard for that devotion. This is what I believe God did through the Reformation through such men as Luther, Calvin and Cranmer and it is why I’m not R.C. or E.O.”
Fair enough. But I wouldn’t (necessarily) classify myself as Protestant.
“Therefore while I think ‘Quod semper, quod ubique, quod ab omnibus forms a basis for orthodoxy I also think that Scripture, read by those filled with the Holy Spirit who directs their understanding, forms a corrective to ‘Quod semper, quod ubique, quod ab omnibus.’”
Therein lies one of our differences. I see that phrase as a hermeneutical principle guiding the interpretation of Scripture whereas you see Scripture as the standard that guides that statement.
“I read your primer on Open Theism. To me it seems no different from certain weird restorationist religious movements to imagine that you’re gonna get back to some sort of ‘paleo-’ view of God un-sullied by the ‘evil’ of Platonic thought.”
Curious. You definitively describe yourself as a Protestant, looking favorably upon a figure like Calvin. Fair enough. Yet you then say that you’re leery of contemporary theologians who are struggling with the possiblity that our theology has been “sullied” over the centuries. Isn’t that exactly what Calvin did? I find this… inconsistent?
“As for me I’m gonna trust that the Church fathers along with most of the other saints of the church were regenerated and filled with the Holy Spirit and could faithfully read Scripture and see that God is all-knowing and sovereign…”
K.
“Also when it comes to Open Theism somehow being more faithful to certain Scriptures where God repenting or doing some such thing is talked about, it looks no more attractive to me to see those Scriptures as literal instead of an anthropomorphism than those Scriptures which speak of God having a hand or wings…”
Now we’re back to hermeneutics. When, where, and why do you take certain passages literally and others anthropomorphically? I’d like to know the principle that guides your interpretation in this matter.
“I also think it’s a pretty big jump to say that the ancient Israelites saw God as being in any way confined to time because such things as divine repentance are mentioned.”
Question: Are you importing a Western conception of time into an ANE text? By the way, this is a point at which I’ve been critical of Open Theists. Most of the books I’ve read have been written from a rather philosophical standpoint, not carefully studying the ANE historical-cultural context of the biblical authors/editors. Thus, my question isn’t one I direct solely toward you by any stretch of the imagination.
L”astly, I didn’t agree to your list. It’s not a bad list but I said that I had some quibbles with it here and there. And one of those is that I think, along with men like Oden, Piper and many of my Catholic and Orthodox friends, that divine impassibility also belongs on the list of doctrines of historic orthodoxy.”
Please provide me evidence that this should be so. It’s not in the creeds. Is it found in the ecumencial councils generally or the first four specifically?
“It’s funny, reading your blog I’ve always thought you were one of these people who is really big on church tradition and looking to the historic Church in a universal sense to determine what should be the belief and practice of Christianity. But it seems that with this issue you are more extremely Protestant, biblicist and fundamentalist than even such men as Piper who at least is able to humble himself before the uniform teaching of the Christian church on this issue prior to the 20th Century.”
The comment that I’m fundamentalist is simply wrong. I recommend you read some Marsden. The other comments I’ll address, though:
It seems to me that you’re thoroughly Paleo-Orthodox in your theological conceptions. That’s cool. But it seems to be causing you to miss the nuance in my previously stated position. Again, I am Paleo-Orthodox, e.g. Thomas Oden, on matters of historic orthodoxy and postfoundationalist, e.g. Roger Olson, on matters of adiaphora. (My beliefs are most influenced by the apostolic fathers and theologians of the past 50 years.) People in both categories have been very critical of my theology, which makes me all the more comfortable that I’m in a good place.
“I think it is true arrogance to think that we can gain a better understanding of what God is revealing about Himself in Scripture than all of those men and women of God who went before us. This is exactly what Open Theism does – after 2000 years of what is basically complete consensus the Open Theist is now going to claim that he has found the real understanding of God which is faithful to the Scriptures.”
Arrogance? You don’t know my heart, good sir, nor to you know me personally. I’m gonna go ahead and ignore that comment so we can continue our civil dialogue.
I’m continually working out my faith with fear and trembling. I readily acknowledge that my theological conceptions are imperfect, but I’m doing the best I can. Perhaps ironically, I shall end this comment with a quote by Luther: “Here I stand; I can do no other. God help me. Amen!”
Carson,
You are correct that I do not know your heart and I don’t know if you are an arrogant person. I know that it is a sin I personally struggle with. And while I cannot accuse you of being especially arrogant I do believe that a willingness to depart from near unanimity among Christians on certain doctrines, claiming that now at last we’ve come to the correct understanding on this or that matter, is indeed an arrogant thing to do. I do see you as my brother in Christ though and I would hope to seek your edification.
So on to your comment…
“Therein lies one of our differences. I see that phrase as a hermeneutical principle guiding the interpretation of Scripture whereas you see Scripture as the standard that guides that statement.”
This is a false dichotomy in my opinion. It seems that because you embrace one extreme you assume that I embrace the other. I also see this phrase as a hermeneutical principle guiding the interpretation of Scripture. But I also think that certain traditions have arisen in church history which were widely believed which had no source in Scripture and were contrary to certain clear teachings of the Apostles. In this case “Quod semper, quod ubique, quod ab omnibus,” would not be a hermeneutical principle guiding interpretation but simply a justification for not having to interpret certain passages of Scripture at all which were made difficult by the fact that whatever truth is revealed in that area has been obscured and lost among a certain community.
“You definitively describe yourself as a Protestant, looking favorably upon a figure like Calvin. Fair enough. Yet you then say that you’re leery of contemporary theologians who are struggling with the possiblity that our theology has been “sullied” over the centuries. Isn’t that exactly what Calvin did? I find this… inconsistent?”
I admit it may be an inconsistency and it is one that has troubled me much over the years. But I think there is a difference in Calvin wanting to un-sully Christian doctrine and the quest of Open Theists seeking to do the same. At least for Luther and Calvin and their central theses during the Reformation there was some precedent. I think there was precedent for the conclusions of Luther and Calvin among certain church Fathers like Chrysostom, great theologians like Augustine and Anselm, and even in church councils when the Council of Orange is considered. For Open Theism I see no such precedent. Luther and Calvin called the church back to things that had already been taught and believed even if it was by a minority. Open Theism calls people to something which, except for good ol’ Calcidius, had never been believed.
“Now we’re back to hermeneutics. When, where, and why do you take certain passages literally and others anthropomorphically? I’d like to know the principle that guides your interpretation in this matter.”
My answer: “Quod semper, quod ubique, quod ab omnibus”
“Are you importing a Western conception of time into an ANE text?”
Maybe I am. But Old Testament Intro was one of my favorite classes in seminary and was taught by a brilliant professor who wasn’t an Open Theist so I figure I must not be too far off.
“Please provide me evidence that this should be so. It’s not in the creeds. Is it found in the ecumencial councils generally or the first four specifically?”
My answer: “Quod semper, quod ubique, quod ab omnibus”
“The comment that I’m fundamentalist is simply wrong. I recommend you read some Marsden.”
I’m a huge fan of Marsden, actually. His biography of Jonathan Edwards is the best I’ve ever read.
“I’m continually working out my faith with fear and trembling. I readily acknowledge that my theological conceptions are imperfect, but I’m doing the best I can.”
Amen to that brother!
Matt,
I’m only on a 15 minute break, so I can’t reply to everything right now. I respond to one thing, though.
“And while I cannot accuse you of being especially arrogant I do believe that a willingness to depart from near unanimity among Christians on certain doctrines, claiming that now at last we’ve come to the correct understanding on this or that matter, is indeed an arrogant thing to do. I do see you as my brother in Christ though and I would hope to seek your edification.”
Pretty sure that’s the exact same charged that Catholics leveled against Luther at the diet of Worms.
Hey Carson,
I’m sure it is the same charge the Catholics leveled against Luther. And Luther is a man and a theologian I love but I have to say that if the Catholics leveled this charge they were probably right. From what I can see in the way he wrote, Luther was a brilliant man who knew his own brilliance, and when he wrote to take apart someone’s arguments, like Erasmus’, he wrote in a way which seems very arrogant at times. In fact, one very conservative Lutheran friend of mine quit reading The Bondage of the Will because of what he saw as Luther’s arrogance. So I don’t doubt that Luther was an arrogant man. I think he was an arrogant man used by God to restore the grace of God as the central truth of Christian soteriology.
Matt,
Last fall I wrote a post in which I said that I really like Erasmus, not necessarily because of the content of his beliefs but because of his tone (“Mini Blog #29: I ♥ Erasmus”: http://bit.ly/g9IAxO). I’ve also been highly critical of Luther’s tone in the past, saying that I probably couldn’t have stood the guy had I met him. So I’m not talking about tone here. The Catholics may well have been right in that regard (although I would suggest that Luther got more arrogant as the years went on). What I’m talking about is the content of his beliefs. Luther’s efforts to reform the Roman Catholic church generally and its theology specifically aren’t *intrinsically* arrogant.
There’s this erroneous belief that to be a reformer one must be an arrogant jackass. While that’s often the case, it certainly is possible for one to be a reformer and remain humble. Looking at my life, by temperament I am a reformer. It’s in my DNA. Yet if you survey my blog I think you’ll find that I’m arrogant in neither tone nor content. In fact, I abhor such behavior and regular write/speak against it.
Anyway, I have no desire to go further down this road. I continually search my heart, seek correction from friends/mentors, and submit to the ecclesiastical authority over me. I remain an imperfect sinner, but I’m not arrogant. Of the many things I do struggle with, that just ain’t one of ‘em. I’m now done discussing this matter.
i think you make a lot of valid points, and i agree that it’s too early to put the nail in the coffin of evangelicalism.
rachel’s assessment seems less about evangelicalism at large than a distinctly southern, conservative, bible-belt brand of reformed evangelicalism that is foreign to my experience working and worshiping in the (evangelical ) PCUSA church.
the PCUSA church i worked at planted an emergent church i worshiped at until we moved and joined an episcopal church. mainline, postmodern, liturgical–these churches couldn’t look more different to some but one gospel was preached at all three–the “evangelical” one about Jesus saving sinners and ushering in the Kingdom of God.
there is more unity and healthy pluralism in the Church than the blogosphere would have us believe.
Hello, Suzannah. I appreciate your reading my post. Obviously it’s kinda long. Hope you’ll be dropping by in the future.
“i think you make a lot of valid points, and i agree that it’s too early to put the nail in the coffin of evangelicalism.”
Thanks!
“rachel’s assessment seems less about evangelicalism at large than a distinctly southern, conservative, bible-belt brand of reformed evangelicalism that is foreign to my experience working and worshiping in the (evangelical ) PCUSA church.”
Agreed. I think that’s an important point. She and I have a short correspondence going under her Sunday Superlatives section. I’d love for you to share this thought with her.
“the PCUSA church i worked at planted an emergent church i worshiped at until we moved and joined an episcopal church. mainline, postmodern, liturgical–these churches couldn’t look more different to some but one gospel was preached at all three–the ‘evangelical’ one about Jesus saving sinners and ushering in the Kingdom of God.”
Interesting.
“there is more unity and healthy pluralism in the Church than the blogosphere would have us believe.”
Amen. The sad part for me is the unmet possibilities. Seriously, on a weekly basis at least I’ll have someone drop by my blog or fb page (feel free to send me a friend invite, if you wish) and say something like, “Wow. I didn’t know dialogue like this happens online. This is great!” Meanwhile we were just treating one another as brothers and sisters in Christ, not doing anything particularly special. That such basic hospitality is the cause of celebration is a seriously incriminating point to the American church.
At one point in your post, you suggest a deeper understanding of the mainline denominations, including their “nature and origins.” I myself have been a member of the PC(USA) since childhood, but I find that I don’t always have a strong understanding of what makes it “mainline” myself. Especially when “mainline” is described in terms that seem to make it mutually exclusive with “evangelical.” (I attended and still work at Fuller Theological Seminary, which graduates many PC(USA) ministers) I would be grateful if you could unpack your understanding of the history behind the mainline for the purposes of this discussion.
i’d be interested, too.
i’ve always heard about *those* “social gospel” pcusa churches who don’t *really* believe in Jesus–is that what people mean when they use mainline to mean theologically liberal and not evangelical? i grew up in in the pcusa church and my husband works at a camp owned by a pcusa church, and despite what happens at the national church level (or the exodus to the evangelical-free presyberian), many many pcusa (mainline?) churches/ministries are still firmly evangelical.
we now worship at an episcopal church–where do they fit? is anglican now just a code word for the conservative churches who’ve left? soon after we joined our church, the diocese underwent an ugly schism, which broke my heart, especially since our local church was and still is firmly committed to an orthodox (evangelical?) interpretation of scripture.
Suzannah,
I can speak at least a bit to your question re: Episcopalian/Anglican. My wife was recently ordained to the Episcopalian priesthood, and it has been decidedly her experience that (and this only applies within the United States) “Anglican” often is a code-word for churches that have broken away from the American Episcopalian Church, either to join with an Anglican body from another country, or to join a growing body of churches referring to themselves as the “Anglican Mission in the Americas.” What has been most troubling to my wife is the reality that, although most of these churches seem to be breaking away for reasons related to the consecration of gay bishops (unlike other denominations, the controversy seems little related to gay leaders of local churches), churches that have broken away seem to be willing to align with those who are against women’s ordination, as well (or, at least, not to advocate strongly for women’s ordination, as is the stand of the Episcopal church). This has the effect of meaning that more conservative women on the issue of gay ordination would have trouble finding their own callings supported were they to leave the Episcopal church to join those others who broke away in regard to that issue. (FYI, the AMiA allows for women’s ordination, but also recognizes that many of their churches may not openly receive women priests.)
Hi Carson,
I found your blog via Rachel Held Evan’s post, and you said all the things that I was thinking (and more) in your critique. I think we would be friends (and perhaps someday we will be) My husband is seeking ordination as an Anglican in ACNA (Anglican Network in Canada, as of now) and we’re refugees to Anglicanism too, myself via the Baptists and Clint via Christian Missionary Alliance. I’m going to add your blog to my reading list, as it touches on so many things I can see eye to eye with, especially a passion for seeing “lost evangelicals” find a home in Anglicanism.
Blessings,
Laura
Thanks for reading the post and the encouraging words, Laura. Much appreciated.
Well, I am going to have to seriously disappoint and postpone my bashing.
I’m not going to be able to go section by section like I wanted to, just don’t have the time.
First, I think you and Rachel are having two different conversions.
You seem to be pointing out the history of the Evangelical movement and the great moderate thinkers within it. This is fantastic and a needed post. I love it.
Rachel is talking about what moderate to progressive Evangelicals are EXPERIENCING in their own churches. Which is what I identify with so strongly with her blog post. I am a big fan of the voices inside of Evangelism that you mention. However, that does me little good on Sunday morning.
I’m also wondering if this issue is hotter down south. With the strong influence of the SBC, and the conservative take over of leadership within it, the Neo Reformed voices have a lot of weight.
I understand that’s what Rachel is experiencing. But, in my opinion, unless one understands what Evangelical has been and can be then one cannot be a heir of its legacy. By understand the past, we are much better prepared to correct the problems of the present and future.
I appreciate what you wrote, but I think you are making “evangelical” overly inclusive. In the Bible Belt, people like N.T. Wright, Scot McKnight, and Francis Collins are generally viewed as heretics and certainly not as evangelical. While they, and I, might think they fall within that category, many churches and their people do not. In my former, very large, IFB, one of many in a ten mile radius, you would be asked to leave the church for expressing anything coming close to advocating egalitarianism. You also brush off Dispensationalism as being almost irrelevant because there aren’t any respected scholars in that field- the problem with that is most churches, and there are many, that fall in the Dispensational mold, have no problem with the lack of respected scholarship. They probably aren’t even aware that their position is often mocked and maligned. And evolution; I don’t think you could walk into any IFB and find one person willing to stand up and say that they disagree with YEC.
People who think that are fundamentalists.
“People who think that are fundamentalists.”
Ah, but they would never call themselves that. They call themselves “Evangelical” and the media call themselves “Evangelical” and even I would feel rude looking in someone’s face and saying “You aren’t ‘Evangelical,’ you are a ‘Fundamentalist.’” Here lately I’ve been thinking my Evangelical Free Church needs to change the name.
And Vanilla Ice also used to claim he was “gangsta” because he was “straight out the hood, yo.” Just ‘cuz a person a person uses a term to describe himself/herself doesn’t mean it’s factually accurate, or should be perpetuated. Just as we shouldn’t redefine “gangsta” to make Vanilla’s description correct, so we shouldn’t redefine “evangelical” to make the fundamentalists’ description correct… Personally, I have no such scruples. I don’t mind telling a person, “According to widely accepted historical studies, you actually fit fundamentalism far more than evangelicalism.”
I think I shall turn this into a miniblog.
Word. I hear you.
“According to widely accepted historical studies, you actually fit fundamentalism far more than evangelicalism.”
I think I’ll steal this and try it out. I’ll let you know how it goes.
Do keep in mind that if they angrily reply, “I’m no fundamentalist! There’s just a lot to be angry about! The real issue is whether or not we’re justly provoked to anger, not whether we are angry!” that you’re most certainly dealing with a fundamentalist.
Carson-
So are you saying that there can’t be any evangelical fundamentalists? I think Penny is right when she said that the fundamentalists consider themselves to be evangelical, as does the media. Vanilla Ice may have thought himself gangster, but no one else did. Most of the public thinks that these fundamentalists are in fact evangelicals.
The foremost scholar on this issue, George Marsen, like to mention (in academic works, no less) that Jerry Falwell used to define a fundamentalist as “An evangelical who’s angry about something.” The better part of his work is simply fleshing that out and adding nuance. So, no, I’m not saying that evangelicalism and fundamentalism are mutually exclusive. All fundamentalists are evangelicals, but not all evangelicals are fundamentalists. The issue that distinguishes them is the angry. Technically speaking, we should refer to them as “fundamentalist evangelicals.”
“Most of the public thinks that these fundamentalists are in fact evangelicals.”
True. Yet, in my experience, most people understand the difference and would agree if you refer to Billy Graham and Jerry Falwell.
I second Mark Baker-Wright’s request for your understanding of the “nature and origins” of mainline denominations. There’s an implication of something sinister in there.
I enjoy watching the archived Billy Graham crusades on TBN and admittedly sat through a fair number of those shows on TV when they originally ran. I agree that he defines the classic mid-20th century ideal of an evangelical, but his politics seriously went off the rails during the Nixon administration.
I’m not avoiding this. Just haven’t found time to reply the past couple days.
Regarding Nixon, did his politics go way off track OR did he (mostly) just get too close to Nixon relationally, thereby being used by Nixon for his political gain?
Two things:
1.) It’s a little cheeky when the thrust of an argument depends on a book recommendation. To say “I wish you would read *this* and then you’d be convinced!” seems to be a confusion of sufficient and necessary conditions.
2.) I liked your response.
Hey, Dan. Thanks for reading.
Two replies:
1) I agree that it’s preferrable not just cite books, but did you see how long the post already was?!? Just to summarize their theses would have significantly added to the length. If you read peruse my blog I think you’ll find that I’m not an academic snob in the least. In fact, those people piss me off… As I see it, on one extreme are the intellectuals snobs. They see themselves as better than other people ‘cuz of their learning. On the other extreme are those who are intellectually apathetic. They (often) see themselves as superior because of their simple faith and piety. I think both extremes are flat wrong. What we need is rigorous engagement w/ issues as expressed through love, humility, grace, compassion, and civility. That’s what I try to practice.
2) Thanks.
I gig’ it, breh. Thanks!
You makes some good points here. I was going to reply in detail here, but it got too long, so I posted something at my blog. Would love to hear your thoughts:
http://www.missional.ca/2011/03/evangelicalism-perception/